25: Unleashing The Potential of Sport

Welcome to a brand new episode of our podcast, where we explore the incredible power of sport to transform lives and unleash human potential!

In this episode, we'll be diving deep into the many ways in which sport can inspire, challenge, and elevate us to new heights. From the thrill of competition to the camaraderie of team spirit, sport has the unique ability to bring out the best in us, both as individuals and as a community.

We'll be hearing from Cath McNicol and Jack Humphries. They'll be sharing their personal stories and insights, and discussing the many ways in which sport can help us achieve our goals, overcome obstacles, and live our best lives.

So if you're ready to be inspired, motivated, and energized by the incredible potential of sport, then this is the episode for you!

*THIS PODCAST IS NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE WITH SMA*
This content is not solely for the SMA Community.  We hope this discussion will be helpful to everyone. ❤️

You can contact SMA UK on the following social media platforms ⬇️⬇️

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▶ | TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/SMA_UK_
▶ | FACEBOOK:  https://www.facebook.com/SpinalMuscularAtrophyUK/

If you do have any questions for Jack, Luis, Cath and the team or would like to participate in any of our podcasts please email luis.castro@smauk.org.uk

*Living With SMA Disclaimer*
The views expressed in this episode belong to the Podcast Participants and not the charity SMA UK, its partners, or employees.  All opinions expressed by the Podcast Participants are solely their current opinions and do not reflect the opinions of SMA UK.  The Podcast Participants' opinions are based upon information they consider reliable, but neither SMA UK, nor the companies with which such participants are affiliated, warrant its completeness or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such. 

Transcript

0:04

Hi everyone and a big welcome to the Living With SMA podcast. We talk about all things spinal muscular atrophy related, but topics discussed are not exclusively for individuals with SMA. So there should be something here for everyone. We also do things differently, for starters our charity, SMA UK uses different hosts and everyone involved gets a final say in the creative process of making these episodes. We cut through the jargon and the content is accessible for everyone. All the stories are individual and we are committed to sharing as many different perspectives as we can for our listeners. So if you're listening to this and have a burning desire to talk about a particular subject then please reach out to us on our social media channels or send us a quick email. And remember no topic is off the table. If there is something the SMA community wants to talk about, this is the place. We really hope you enjoy the podcast and please do connect with our charity and share your comments online and let us know what you think. From all the team at SMA UK, thank you for listening. Hi everyone, welcome to the next episode of Living With SMA. My name is Luis, some of you might know me already, but I am somebody who has SMA type two. And today's episode is actually really interesting, it's talking about sport and what that means to some people and what kind of impact it can have on your lives. And today I'm joined by two amazing guests and they're going to introduce themselves all shortly. And, yeah, hold on tight 'cause it's gonna be a good one. So if I can just ask, I don't know, Cath if you want to go first maybe just introduce yourself and then we'll move on to Jack. Hi, I'm Cath and I live in Middlesbrough at the moment, and I have SMA type two. Awesome. Hey I'm Jack, I'm from Manchester and I've got SMA type three. Great. So, I guess before we jump into the nuts and bolts, when did sport really become part of your lives and what has it done for you so far. Maybe Jack if you could go first. I think it wasn't until about... Obviously in school and in quite the early days of school when I was able to walk and I was trying to get involved in sport, but obviously the physical barrier of playing sport was so great. There was a moment in nursery, I remember, when everyone's doing this penalty shoot out, kicking the ball, straight to the goal, and I'm there I've stepped up to the ball and I can't lift my leg up to move to actually kick the ball. And it was from then on, I was like,"Oh, I don't really like this, I can't really do it." And it was that until I discovered Powerchair Football and that completely changed my perception. I've just got the spot in general and how sport can be played in different ways. It doesn't have to be just kicking a ball, stuff like that, there's loads of different types of sport. And yeah, getting into Powerchair Football I think it was brilliant. That's fantastic and Cath how about you? I suppose I've got a different story to Jack. I always really craved sport. I wanted to have a go at everything, wanted to try everything but never really found anything that suited me because I used a wheelchair. I didn't want anything that was, I would say, a blessed them sport. I didn't wanna just take part. I wanted to have an active role. I was happy to be pushed round at rounders and have somebody else bat for me, just to be involved socially. But I tried a few things, I tried a bit of sailing, a bit of canoeing, but none of it was all... I couldn't compete on the same level as other people that were there that were able bodied. So I suppose, for me, I then found a marching band which gave me that team feel. We'd competed, there was a competitive element of it and I could compete at the same level. It wasn't actually a sport as such, but it did give me that team feel and it wasn't until I was an adult that I discovered Powerchair Football. And yeah, that was definitely what had been lacking. I was hooked straight away. Awesome. I guess I could really relate to that. So, yeah, in South Africa there weren't really sports that I could partake in apart from something that our school had put together, which was... It was almost like an obstacle course that was timed. So you had to maneuver your chair in between certain things and up and down things. And every time you bumped something, you'd get a penalty point or a time added on. But I think my friends made a real impact on my participation in sport because they never really wanted to acknowledge my disability as a barrier for me. So we would play football together, and nine times out of 10 I would end up being the goalie and they wouldn't hold back. They would shoot like they're shooting at a normal goalie there and, yeah, the ball hits you in the face and you have a bit of a tear and you carry on like big boys do, I guess. And even with cricket, they always wanted me to be part of it. And I think for me that was quite an enriching experience because it was no longer them and me, it was us. And I think that really helped me change my mindset on how little or how much I allow my disability to get in the way of what I'm trying to achieve. I think that's a great question in terms of the language around disability and do you find that disability is perceived differently in the sport context rather than in everyday living context? I suppose it depends what sort of context. If you're involved in sport with other able bodied peers, then it's different to if you are involved in a sport that is a disability sport. So for me, there's a real benefit of being involved in disability sport in that I feel like I'm an equal and I suppose disability just doesn't even seem to come into it. Then there's nobody with... You can't say, "I'm disabled, I need the disabled parking space," because everybody that's there needs the disabled parking space and there's a leveller there, whereas, in a sport where you are integrated into it, I think for me personally, I think that frustrates me 'cause I see... Although it is nice to be socially there and joining on a social level, recreationally I suppose, I find it's frustrating because I think, "I can see how I could do that, but my body just won't allow it." Yeah, it's an interesting point, what you say about the different language. Powerchair Football, I just play for Leeds Powerchair Football Club and at Leeds, Paul who's the main coach, he's in a wheelchair himself, so it really creates an interesting dynamic between Paul, the coach, and the players because it means we can have like a bit of banter as well. We've had a couple of banter sometimes like, "Oh, put my arm down, just touch the ball or something." And he's like, "Oh, he's not really disabled." There's quite a bit of banter you can have as well, between people with disabilities where I think if it was somebody who was able, ambulate or walking, if it was a walking coach, it'd be completely different context where you can't have an inter joke between teammates and stuff like that. I think that's the crucial part of the language bit. And I think, like you said, Cath, when you're integrated in other sports, it's not as common, if you've got able bodied people and non able bodied people. Yeah. I think Jack, a good example of that is when my partner who's a coach will say, "Oh, my legs are really aching," and I'll go, "Yeah mine are too." And then the rest of the team will snigger. I don't think that would happen in a mainstream environment, there would be an awkward silence, I think. Yeah, I think this really highlights the difference between the social model and the medical model of the term disability. And, Jack, I'm a big fan of banter, so I can see how you can really enjoy moments like that with people. My mates were the same, they never held back. If they had shots to fire, they would fire them whether they were abled or not. I think it's a great way for people to, not just include you in everything, but also show that you're a human being and that referring to our disabilities is not always a sensitive subject. I think, Jack, earlier you referred to Powerchair Football and that you are competing at the moment. And I guess the question I have is, what does that mean for you? What does having Powerchair Football in your life mean to you? It means quite a bit to be honest, because there's a lot of aspects to it that create... There's a lot of positive aspects. So there's the social aspect which Cath was touching on where it's like you're all in the same situation, you're all in the same boat, or you're all in similar situations where you've got a common... You've got something in common, basically. So when you're in that situation, it's quite easy to either learn things off of people or you do that, "Okay, I'll try that." Or you can relate with people. I think that's really important. So the social aspect I think means so much, but it's also playing a sport as well, being involved in something, building up key skills like teamwork and leadership and things like that is really important. And I think that's what it means to me. It means I'm picking up skills. I'm actually playing a sport as well. I'm staying healthy, I'm staying fit, trying to play this sport. It's making me also think, "Oh, if I do that, then it might affect my game tomorrow. If I have a beer on a Friday night, is it gonna affect training on a Saturday?" Thinking things like that, but you're thinking all the time and it makes you a healthier person as well. It really has impacted, had a massive impact. Yeah. Cath, I know you, so I know that you are involved in the sport as well on and you've been involved on various levels. Same question to you. What does it mean to you? And maybe also if you can touch a little bit on the difference between what it was like at grassroot level and elite level as well. I suppose the same thing, exactly the same for me as Jack has said. So those things are all relevant to me as well, but I would probably just add into that as well that I started playing Powerchair Football when I was in a quite high pressure job. I was a math teacher, and in secondary school and going to Powerchair Football was what I like to describe as another adult going to play squash or badminton or going and having to kick a ball on the field, on Sunday League. But I was able to use that as a release. So for me, that gave me that release I didn't have, I just had my social life with my friends and my work, but I didn't seem to have that, that was a element that was missing. But I suppose, the difference between grassroots and elite level, I played at a really high level Powerchair Football in a team that were top of the league. We won the league a number of years and the cup and made it to the European Championships. So I felt a lot of pressure in there. It was meant to be a release, and it turned out that it became a pressurized but addictive activity for me. And, but I felt a real pressure before the games because we were sitting at the top of the league or second in the league, that there was a pressure to win every game. Whereas, I now play for a team that we are in the National League, we are pushing to get ourselves promoted to premiership. But there's much less pressure on me now because I feel that there is a... We're gonna lose some games, so go out, try our best, and the mental place I'm in is, "Just do your best, if the other team are better on the day, they're better on the day and they win," but I did feel much more pressure when I played for Northern Thunder in that, "We've gotta win this game. If we happen to have a goalless draw, that's gonna be devastating." Whereas now, often a goalless draw for us is, "Well, that's a win. We've kept them to a goalless draw." Excellent, excellent. I guess, Jack, hearing Cath talk about playing at this level and then some of the pressures, let's talk about the psychology of the game. So what do you do to prepare for matches? Don't you have pre match rituals? How does that dynamic work when looking at tactics? And, maybe, do you ever have to hide that you're not injured and playing injured so that you don't look weak? What do you guys normally do in that thinking part of the game? Pretty much going back to the pre match rituals and stuff, my main one's just a Lucozade and some Haribo. That usually gets me into... But it's one of them... People have different things getting into games. There's ways to get you into a mindset, 'cause playing Powerchair Football, it's about having a certain mindset. It's about having a bit of no fear 'cause you can see... I know I'm notorious for it, sometimes I'll shy away a little bit and be like, "Oh, I don't wanna go into a challenge," when you've gotta be in a mindset of, "Okay, I wanna go in to win, we wanna win," especially at the elite level, "We wanna win the game." And to win that, you've gotta be in the right mindset. You've gotta be in this no fear kind of mindset and I think, going into the psychology of it, it's about just concentrating, keeping concentration up. You can't let your mind slip. You can't beginning counting how many light bulbs around the stadium or something like that. You can't lose your mind. You've gotta keep on the game, on the date, and kind of build that up. And sometimes, I go... Where we are in Nottingham, it's quite round the university campus, so sometimes, I'll even just go for a drive around in the chair just before the game, prep myself mentally. But obviously, it depends what kind of game. But sometimes, I just kinda need a walk, some fresh air and stuff like that. But yeah. And in terms of injuries and stuff, yeah, kind of, sometimes, but I'm quite a whingy person. I'll complain at anything me. So, but yeah, I've played with injury. The last national weekend we had, I could not sleep on the Saturday. We stayed in a hotel, could not sleep on the Saturday night because of major shoulder pain in my right hand side. I felt like I'd really, really hurt my shoulder. So I was really struggling to sleep. And the next day, we had a game against Aspire. It was the game against Aspire, and one of the lads, I think his headrest wasn't right, it was not legal to play with because it was hanging over the back of his chair. So he had to go and get that sorted, and he wasn't able to play. Now, at Leeds, we've only got five of us, so it meant we had to play all four. We had no substitutes, so I had no choice but to just grin and bear it, it wasn't too bad 'cause I managed to have a couple of ibuprofen, but it was still not... I was still not 100%. And in the West Brom game after that, I just completely was like, "Right, best off just sitting out for this one." But yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Cath, I guess in terms of philosophy and team cultures, have you found that it's similar going from team to team, or are they very different? What does that dynamic look like? I think it's really, yeah, it's different from team to team. And that largely does depend on your coach. I think that's really important, that you have a really good relationship with the coach and the type of person they are. I think that really does impact, although it should be about what the club want, what the club philosophy is but I don't think that's always the case. Actually, I was gonna add there, Louis, that I remember, talking back about the pressures, when I played for Northern Thunder, I would end up with an upset stomach the night before every National League weekend and actually, a piece of my pre match rituals became taking some Imodium through the pressure so yeah, different. Wow. I don't have that anymore at all, I'm really chilled now. In fact, now one of the things that I do, there was a lot of pressure when I played for Northern Thunder to get to the speed test machine first. The coach put a lot of pressure on our team and said, "You must make it there first, you're gonna need to get speed tested first." And so now I'm in a different club, for me now, I will make sure that it's all mixed up. I don't care what happens, I'll go on the speed test at different positions each match, I'll try to make sure there is no ritual 'cause I think that that can be a little bit more of a problem if it then can't happen. So I haven't got any lucky pants 'cause what if they're in the wash? I don't care if I've got different trainers on because you never know what's gonna happen, they might get soaky the day before. So I try... I am conscious of making sure that there is no ritual before any game 'cause I can see how that can really impact if you're getting into a headspace of, "But I'm always first in the team, I always get on the speed test machine first." And then somebody else gets on it, what that will do when you then get to your game so I try to make sure there isn't any. That's a very good point. But there's a lot... I don't think of that actually that way. I guess there will always be team dynamics. And do you find that sometimes people's personalities can get in the way of team progress? I guess a great example is looking at the Premier League, and Jurgen Klopp is a very emotive, passionate manager whereas Mourinho is very precise, strict school teacher type vibe. And they each get different results. So do you think that actually plays a role? Can it get in the way of progress? Does it promote progress? What do you think about that, Jack? So I'm coming from a situation where I've played for two teams. Obviously, Cath's played with Northern Thunder and Middlesbrough, she's got the experience, both experience pretty similar to this. But the previous team we used to play for, Northwest Bees, we had a coach, John Gilmer. I thought he was a brilliant coach, and he actually taught me a lot of the fundamentals of the game. He got me into the game really well. And his coaching style was enjoyable, but it was, I could see from other perspectives that it was quite... He was very upfront about what he said and he was very, we used the term Neil Warnock behind the scenes, we called him Neil Warnock. So and he was very kind of like that. He would always want results, he would be a bit on fire all the time, has to try and wind people up, try and get the best out of you. And thought he was brilliant because we learned the fundamentals and we learned tactics that he wanted to play and the tactics that his kind of mindset was to try and just win the game by any means necessary. Playing for Leeds now, the mindset's completely different, we've got a completely... He's actually taught me quite a bit about mindset in general and having a specific game mindset and can you apply... What my mindset can you apply to a game to help you win? But because previously, I remember playing games, especially the first season in the National League, we're losing like five or six nil and you sat there thinking, "I feel I don't know what to do. I really don't know what to do. I'm in this situation where do we go from here?" And I think that that's a really negative thing, whereas I've learned quite a bit and I've spoken to a couple of people like Chris Gardner and at West Brahman, a couple of other people, and learned how much mindset is about the game. It's about understanding yourself and going, "How can we score a goal from this situation? What can we do? How can we pass the ball around? Is there a specific thing I can do to help score a goal on this situation?" Not kind of giving up if we've gone one or two nil down. So I think that's really important. I think that's something I've picked up quite recently, but it's such a vital thing that I could, any player should really grasp. Cath have you had something similar like that? Yeah, so I think it was really good for me because as I mentioned earlier, I felt quite a bit of pressure in the first team that played for, which I'm not saying it was bad, because I had a great experience in Northern Thunder. But I did feel like that I didn't feel comfortable making mistakes. So that almost makes you stick to what you know, stick with what you do. Whereas, and also I was coached by a man. So my experience now in Middlesbrough, we have a female coach. So it's a completely different way of coaching. I'm also a leader on the pitch, so we've got a very young team. So I really work in a different way. We encourage the players, we make them feel comfortable, comfortable to make mistakes, to go, to try, have a go. And that actually is really rewarding in that you actually end up in having a much more positive game because they are much more relaxed as players. So they do play really good. We talk about happy players playing really good football. And I suppose it's the difference between the coaching styles that's taught me that. So I've learned and almost taken the best things from what I learned at Northern Thunder, but then the little bits I thought could be improved, we've changed in Middlesbrough. That's amazing. I guess for people who might be listening to this or watching this that don't really understand what it's like to be disabled, what does match day, normal match day entail? Is there a travel experience? How long does it take? What kind of experiences can you share that can just try highlight that it's not as simple as getting in your car, going to a field and doing your time on the pitch and then going home again? I think that you've just said it's about people... For the average kind of person that is able bodied and things like that, you can you just jump in your car, like you said, jump in your friend's car if your car is not working, your friend's car, you can jump in the back of that and you go off to training. And that's been the problem with being in a wheelchair, is that you've got to have a specific vehicle that caters for your requirements to get a wheelchair in. Obviously, with the motor ability scheme and a lot of players having mobility cars, it means that there's quite a lot of kind of a fail safe if something does go wrong, if they can't get the car, they can potentially get a hire car. But again, it depends on situations. Quite recently we had an art feast on our feast game. My car was unavailable. I had to go and get something repaired and just trying to get a taxi was a nightmare because the taxi that turned up wasn't accessible. So again, that's another thing, it can be quite stressful managing trying to get to places if you don't have a vehicle, if you do have a vehicle, the other situations are if you don't drive as a person. I'm quite fortunate I'm learning to drive, but if players that don't drive or are unable to drive maybe younger players that don't want, just actually don't want learn to drive, don't wanna have that drive. They may be getting PAs, parents and people like that who might not be comfortable or might not be able to drive full stop or just might not be comfortable using motorways or using dual carriageways that can be quite busy and overwhelming. Players and parents might struggle to get to far reaching places. Obviously, the travel can be quite difficult for some players and I think logistical nightmare, it can be a bit of logistical nightmare sometimes. I've seen some clubs and Cath will probably go into it in a minute where you transport chairs for them, for the players and do things like that. And that's brilliant. But for some clubs where it's not always feasible to do that, it can be a bit of a nightmare. Okay. Cath, what's your experience in this dynamic. I think, as Jack has already shared, it can be quite an anxious experience and it can be quite difficult to manage. So how have you had to do it in the past or how have you seen other people cope with that pressure? I suppose, I would want to share to start with, those people that don't know that Powerchair is a little bit difficult because of the difficulties of traveling or not necessarily the difficulties, just the effort it takes to get to venues. Our National League is played over a weekend in a central location. So we go and play between four and five games over the Saturday and Sunday. But it's not just a one drive down the road 5 10 minutes to your local team to have a match with them every weekend. It's five weekends a year, we travel to Nottingham and it depends how far away you live from Nottingham as to how you manage that. So for us, our team, we're about two and a half hours away from Nottingham. So that's too much to do in one day and then back again the next day. So we travel down and then stay overnight. So it's the logistics of staying in a hotel, but as Jack mentioned, our club realized the difficulties and tried to find a way that we could take some of those away and make it a little bit easier for players to travel. So we have a club trailer and we will transport with the chair. So all the players have got to do is get themselves there. Some come on the Friday night, stay overnight, some don't come until the Saturday morning. But actually, going back to something you said earlier, Jack, about having painful shoulder, the hotel that we stay in has a terrible, terrible bed and sometimes I get no sleep the night before. So one of the things I've started to do is thinking about taking a lilo or extra pillows and really trying to think about how I can manage that so that I'm in my best for the match the next day. Yeah, I guess that's a... Sorry, go for it Jack. So that's a really interesting point you've just made because obviously the logistics of getting to a location for some people it's not always feasible. And then obviously conditions, people's different conditions can mean they'll need different equipment. So for example, with myself, it's if we're gonna go and stay in a hotel overnight, it's taking not only my Powerchair Football chair, a shower chair so I can use the bathroom facilities. It's taking a hoist as well and it's getting all them things into a car, remembering everything. We went to Shelton quite recently, I remember we got two hours there and I remember thinking, "Have we got the hoist battery? Do we pick the hoist battery up?" And I remember thinking, "If we've forgotten this, we're in trouble there." And then we had to check and luckily we had it. But again, it's one of them things, it's all these things you've gotta remember and obviously keeping lists and everything's so important. But then, like you've said, Cath about hotel rooms, even then hotel rooms don't meet requirements, they might not be able to meet... Some people might have sleep systems where they'll have cushions maybe under the legs, under the arms and things like that to help them sleep better. And hotel beds can maybe not support that. I know I have the same kind of similar issues with my legs. I have to sleep with my legs up, using a kind of a low profiling bed. So I sleep like that. Obviously it's not really feasible in a hotel bed. So getting pillows and etcetera to try and make that is again, a nightmare. And as well, the other thing is, going back to hotel rooms not being accessible is, we've discovered you can't fit a hoist under the hotel bed. It's a nightmare. So we've... Back when we first discovered this, we went away to London for a weekend and we couldn't get a hoist under the bed. So we ran to Tescos and got some of the fruit and veg baskets and literally lifted the beds onto these fruit and the things that they put fruit and veg in at Tescos. And we thought, "Okay, we've got this, there's gotta be something better than this." So we made these wooden blocks that would sit... That would lift a bed up so we can actually get a hoist underneath. So obviously there's workarounds and things like that you can come up with, I think that's the beauty of it. It makes you think outside the box, from this perspective, but it's just can be such a nightmare, especially... Wait, again, another story. We went to Kettering and they booked us in. Me, dad booked the wrong... We got mixed up in the bookings. We got a non disabled hotel room. That was a real, real challenge. But again, it's the challenge that was the fun bit. For me that's the fun bit, but it's just for some players, I can see can be quite distressing and the anxiety as well that can create for some people could be quite a lot. It's could be quite scary for some people. But yeah. I think. Sorry, go for it Cath. I was gonna say, I think that depends on... That goes back to the sort of person you are. I like a challenge, so I see that as a way of trying to fit around things and trying to find solutions. So I think that that really goes back to your gameplay as well, that if you can find ways to make that work, then that's gonna be really good for you on the pitch as well. Yeah, so that's exactly the question that I was going to lead to now. We've spoken about how the external environments can really impact you in a way that most people don't understand. So it's not only worrying about how you get back. We're talking about playing multiple matches in one day. We're talking about the stress of getting accommodation that's suitable as we all know that everyone's needs are different even though we have the same disability, there are various levels like Jack touched on earlier. How does that affect your gameplay? So as you say, Cath, now you've got to the point where you don't let it get in the way. But I can imagine for many other people that lack of sleep, anxiety, pressure to have a win. How does that play on your mind in the match? And does it affect your gameplay? Does it force you to try and work on your internal self to try be able to manage that and broaden your shoulders? I think that I definitely, when I get through the sports hall doors that then everything else gets thrown out of my head. So I try to make sure that I'm there early, if possible, so that I can get into that and I can get my head in a space of, "Now all that matters is football. Anything else that's happened before doesn't matter." And one of the ways I make sure that happens is my partner is a referee. And so she has said now she will not referee the game before the match that I have. 'Cause I've said that creates a lot of stress 'cause I don't know what's happening, don't know where you are. I can't get myself strapped in. I'm not ready to go into that space and then be able to wipe everything and just think about football. So that's how I manage that. How about you, Jack? I guess, I'll be honest, I'll be completely honest touching the mental health side. I've been in some very dark place. I've been in some very dark mindsets before. I was a bit depressed for a couple years and especially a while ago. I wasn't in the best space, but I know that like Cath said, going through the sports hall doors into the sports hall, you're there to play football, your mind completely switches, everything that you're anxious about is completely thrown out the window. You're there to play football, you're there to have a good laugh with your mates and stuff like that as well. I think that's the whole mind... That's the whole thing is that whatever anxiety that things cause may be going away, it doesn't really, it can play in your mind until... Obviously, and you've gotta be that person that can just take a step back almost and just remove that and go into the game. It can... For some players I could understand if they're still a bit anxious and again, even in the game about being anxious, it could just be getting injured. Some players, I know I'm notorious for it, will not want to go into a challenges in case of injury or I might get knocked. I know you've got this metal massive metal tube case around you. You're not... It's nothing's gonna come directly in contact with you apart from maybe the ball for example. But could sneak up. But yeah, I think obviously getting into a bit of challenge can cause anxiety in us. I'm sure Cath won't explain the ball flicking up, maybe coming at people, we've had a couple before. Even in our Aspire game at the start of the season, Jon Baldwin, is got quite a bit of power on his chair, 180 spins it and it flies off the floor and it must have been about head height for our goalie, but it's just gone past him and hit the post. It's taken the post just clean out. And we were thinking if that would've been a few inches to the left, it would've taken his head off and that's the anxiety as well. It's playing the game... That's these anxiety of actually playing the game as well, which can cause people to be not as brave. But I think if you can remove yourself from that, and again, it's mindset going into the games, which can probably help with that. It's really important. One of the actually interesting things to say that from there, Jack, be brave term, that's one of the things that as coaches, Karen and I, we say to our players a lot, before the game going, we use the term be brave. But I was smiling at you there because I did end up with a ball in my face once, smashed right into my... Just above my eye, cleaned my glasses completely off my face and smashed in. Yeah, lovely black eye there and it was quite painful. But I think also now I'm aware I survived. It did hurt a little bit, but actually I'm all right. The players are also all right. And so I think that, I actually a little bit Jack, I kind of liked it a little bit. I was like, "Yeah, I got an injury, I've got football injury." 'Cause that's what happens in the mainstream. I think it can happen in a running game, can't it? That you can have a really bad tackle and you can really injure yourself in a bad tackle in the running game. I think that for me it's about showing players that actually it can happen, but you're all right, you'll recover. Yeah, battle scars. I like that. I guess as we're coming towards the end of the episode without revealing too much insider information, I guess how do you control your tactics on the pitch? So I guess, do you have any special techniques that you use to communicate with one another? Is it something that you discuss beforehand? I know in a normal football match you have people shouting at each other and people are making runs, which are quite obvious to see. And I can imagine that the nature of our disability is sometimes very limiting so we have to be creative. What can you tell us without giving away too much? I think, obviously you do have the team talk at the start of the game, your classic... Every single football you do have a team talk before the game, halfway through the game, end of the game. That's what you do. You go into a game, "What we're gonna do in this game? How we're gonna play it? Who's gonna start?" These are kind of things that we're going... We're talking about in this thing. And at half time, "Is there gonna be any subs in this second half? Are we gonna change our approach up slightly?" And then at the end of the game it's like, "How did we do? Could we do better? Is there anything that we can change for the next game?" Because obviously, like Cath said, we play four or five games in a weekend. So it's about, "Okay, we've done... That one's done and dusted. What can we do in the next game?" And again, we have other things. We have video replay sessions, we'll actually sit on Zoom and watch back some of the games we've played. How did we do this? Well, did we do that? And then we talk about mindset and things like that. So these things that we can prepare for games with the communication, but going to on the pitch, while you're playing, obviously, I'm quite a vocal person. I also know Cath can be, it's about being vocal to your team. Me and Seth on our team, very vocal people. Seth all the time, he's like,"He's behind you, he's got you covered. He's this, that." Seth's very vocal. Whereas there's players like Dan and Jack, they're a bit quiet, Harrison, they're a bit quieter, but they still have the ways of communicating. It's not like they're not communicating. Northern Thunder, again, just be one for... Northern Thunder had Ed Common and Ed Common the way Ed Common communicates is by with his eyes and he points, he'd be like, "Okay, you know that I want it there." He won't speak. When you play Northern Thunder, it's like no one's talking. You can hear a pin drop, but everyone's... They all got their ways of communicating, whether it's pointing whether it's with their eyes. And that's what... I do some coaching as well, and I know that players particularly with cerebral palsy can struggle talking at the same time as moving. So you can come up with ways and just say, like, "Okay, I know you can't talk, I know it's difficult for you to talk. I know you may have your speech impediment or maybe something that stops you from speaking or you're just a generally shy person." You can encourage,'Okay, if you're not gonna speak, just maybe point or try and look with your eyes, try and turn your chair in a certain way or move your head." There's things that we can do as players to signal to our teammates. Sometimes in games when I don't want people to know what I want to do, and this is probably going a bit in depth, but I can signal with my hand like, "oh, you know what? Yeah, I'm gonna signal this way." So there's different ways of communicating on the pitch while playing. And I think as a coach, it's understanding them.'Cause I know that some people are like, "I need to talk while playing football." Or, "I need to do this." Whereas in our game especially, it's not about talking, it's about communicating. And they're two completely different things, communicating, "We're going right," okay pointing. Some people may use the horn like, maybe, "I mean, I'm open." It can mean different things. And it's, as a team, it's creating that kind of team language that you all speak, that you all know not necessarily what the other team knows, but you all know. Yeah. That's amazing. That's really genius if you think about it. Cath, how about you? Yeah, I probably should mention something Jack didn't mention that sort of quite a lot of players use, and a lot of our players do use that. People that want to communicate but have a low, a quiet voice, we have microphone and headsets so we can amplify the voice. But also I know I don't, I was part of Northern Thunder, so I developed this way and I don't like to speak. I find it really difficult to move at the same time and also communicate at the same time. I just find that that takes up too much energy. So I will use my eyes a lot. And I'll open wide if something's happening that I don't want to happen by my teammates. And but I think actually something my granddad said when I was quite much younger to my mom, he said that I have speaking eyes. And I think that's quite true of a lot of people with SMA. I think a lot of people with SMA, on SMA podcast, they have what my granddad calls as speaking eyes. So I think a lot of people do use that to communicate and as Jack said as well, chair position, I might move my chair to show something, but then move back again. And the other thing that I wanted to just briefly touch on was something that Jack mentioned. It was about empathy, actually, and about your teammates having empathy for the difficulties that the players have. So they may bring something really positive or they will bring something really positive to the game and to your team, but then your players need to be empathetic to the difficulties they have. So if you have someone on your team who finds it very difficult to communicate at all, because it might mean they need to take their whole energy just to move the chair. Then to understand that and to know how somebody will communicate if they can't see behind them and you know they can't see behind them, to have their back by saying, "So and so's there. You've got a space there," letting them know if there's somebody behind them. So, I think the communication is not just about communicating what you want to do in the game, but also to support your teammates. Yeah, absolutely. People always say that I talk with my eyes, with my PAs. And I do, I use my eyes quite a lot in noisy environments or when I'm trying to do something while there's something in my mouth. I can totally relate to that. I think this has been really, really insightful, and I guess since you both like challenges, I thought it would be great to give you a challenge to end off this episode. Out of three things that you can choose to help grow a career from grassroots level to elite and maintain a career in Powerchair Football, what of these following three, would you choose talent, the ability to graft and drive for what you want, or a strong support network? So I think maybe we'll start with Cath. So you can only have one. You have to lose the others if you already have them. Correct. So I really believe in graft and drive. I think that you can be the most talented player in the world, and if you don't put that graft and drive in that then you won't be at the top. And I believe as a player, I have graft and drive. I don't think I'm the most talented player, but if I want something, I will work at it. I will go away. One of the things you mentioned earlier about building up for the game and how you shut off so that you are ready for the game so you're not letting other things bother you. I actually use it the other way as well. So if I can't sleep or I've got something that's bothering me, that's on my mind, I will stick on YouTube, find a game, focus on somebody else's game and learn from what they're doing. Or I'll think about a move that we've done in training and try and work out how I can improve that. So I will use that to support me in my mental health, I suppose. But I think, that year drive and determination I think is really, really, really important and that would be the top one. Okay, great. How about you, Jack? I'd have to agree with Cath. I think it's important to have the drive and determination. You can have all the talent, but if you don't have the ability, Powerchair Football, as we know is a team sport. If you come as an individual, it's very difficult to be that individual that scores every single goal that goes out. Like we say it's a team sport and I think as an individual you could have a lot of talent, but it's about using that talent with a drive and determination with your team. If you can be determined and be driven, then that also reflects on your teammates as well. Rather than just, "Oh, look at me, just pass the ball to me and I'll whack them all in." It's more gonna be about as a team, let's drive and be determined. Maybe this person is better than that person, but it doesn't matter because you've all got the same drive and determination. I think that's quite an England thing as well. I take part in the north, the regional pathway and that's something they're always saying. It's about you can be the most talented player in the world, but if you don't play the England way, play in this way of determined trying to... The example is obviously if you are a middle player in the league and you wanna go and play for England you've gotta be able to learn a new position. You maybe go on the wing for England 'cause John Balden, who perhaps you are never gonna take the middle of him. So you'll have to learn the wing if you're a middle player. So I think having that determination, that drive to learn that new position, to learn the nuances like the chair positioning in that new position, learn the different things as a winger or as a goalkeeper or a different position, that's the drive as well. You've gotta have the drive to be able to learn, and to be able to build on your game. And for example, the far out tactic that's quite commonly used especially with the teams like West Brom, this far outplay is something that people have learned and they've been... The drive and the determination to learn this new skill and to develop it as well as a natural tactic that players will use in games. It's gonna... If the next thing comes out, if somebody has discovered a new thing we could all implement in the game, we all need to have this determination and this drive to implement it in ourselves and to try it out and things like that. But you can't win games just by... We always use the phrase,"The ball doesn't travel through metal." You can hit a ball a million times at a net, but you've gotta try and work... Get it around the other team, and it's having the determination to get it around the other team, to get it round the goalkeeper, you can't... You need the determination and the drive to do that. Thank you that's really really great. And I just wanna thank the both of you for coming on today's episode and for sharing what it's like be a Powerchair Footballer, being a little bit vulnerable talking about mental health and anxiety which I think many would appreciate listening to. And also just for anyone who's gonna be up against either of you now that they know how to communicate and what's your tactics, I'd be careful if I was you. But again, thank you. It was really great having the both of you on here and with that that comes to the end of today's episode. Stay tuned 'cause there's many more great episodes lined up. And again, thanks to the wonderful guests and for just spending time with us today and giving us a great insight on what sport can not only give you in terms of challenges, but how it can help build you up and give you a great experience in life. You've been listening to the Living With SMA podcast. We hope you can join us again next time. But in the meantime, don't forget to like and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. You can find out more on our website, @smauk.org.uk.