24: How to surprise your family at Christmas

Welcome to the Living With SMA Podcast (Also available on ▶ | YOUTUBE)

SMA UK host Ross Lannon chats to guests Luis Canto E Castro and Cath McNicol about festivities and how we can surprise our loved ones with gifts this Christmas when you have a disability.

*THIS PODCAST IS NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE WITH SMA*
This content is not solely for the SMA Community.  We hope this discussion will be helpful to everyone. ❤️

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If you do have any questions for Ross, Luis, Cath and the team or would like to participate in any of our podcasts please email luis.castro@smauk.org.uk

*Living With SMA - 'How to surprise your family at Christmas' disclaimer:*
The views expressed in this episode belong to the Podcast Participants and not the charity SMA UK, its partners, or employees.  All opinions expressed by the Podcast Participants are solely their current opinions and do not reflect the opinions of SMA UK.  The Podcast Participants' opinions are based upon information they consider reliable, but neither SMA UK, nor the companies with which such participants are affiliated, warrant its completeness or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such.

Transcript

0:04

Hi everyone, and a big welcome to the Living With SMA podcast. We talk about all things spinal muscular atrophy related, but topics discussed are not exclusively for individuals with SMA, so there should be something here for everyone. We also do things differently. For starters, our charity SMA UK uses different hosts and everyone involved gets a final say in the creative process of making these episodes. We cut through the jargon and the content is accessible for everyone. All the stories are individual and we are committed to sharing as many different perspectives as we can for our listeners. So if you're listening to this and have a burning desire to talk about a particular subject, then please reach out to us on our social media channels or send us a quick email. And remember, no topic is off the table. If there is something the SMA community wants to talk about, this is the place. We really hope you enjoy the podcast and please do connect with our charity and share your comments online and let us know what you think. From all the team at SMA UK, thank you for listening. Hello, everybody and welcome back to a brand new episode of the Living With SMA podcast, and for those who are watching us on video today on YouTube, I'm sure you can guess already, it is a festive episode. So yeah, today's theme is all around festivities and how we can surprise our loved ones with gifts this Christmas when you have a disability. So I feel like we should just dive straight in with the introductions and explain what is going on, on our heads because we're all looking a bit funny today. So I'll kick things off. For those who don't know, my name is Ross. I'm a disability blogger. I run a blog called A Life On Wheels. I'm 29 from Cornwall and I have SMA myself. Cath, can you introduce yourself, please? I can. I'm Cath. I work for Pathfinders Neuromuscular Alliance, which is a peer led organisation. I am too old to mention my age and I'm originally from the south but now living in the north, up in Middlesbrough. Amazing. And Mr. Luis. Hi, everyone. I seem to become a regular on this podcast lately. So for those of you who don't know me, I'm Luis, I am 37. I have SMA type 2. I do some work on the side for SMA UK and I am also a diversity and inclusion consultant. Fantastic. So first things first, let's talk about these headpieces. We're in a festive episode today. So Luis, you've got some horns, tree horns that seem to be getting more and more lopsided as we go. Talk me through what's going on here. Well, when you commented on my background yesterday when we had our briefing call, I knew that you were going to up the ante with a great background. And then when I joined this link, you had something on your head. So I improvised and I've now got some Christmas glitter, I don't know, table trees that you would have on your Christmas dining table. So I'm probably going to be covered in glitter before we're done with this episode. Okay. And then I think the both of us kind of forced Cath to join in on the fun as well. Cath, you've ended up with some kind of elf hat on your head? Yeah, this is last year's Christmas attire. It's too early this year. Yeah, luckily, my partner arrived home, so I had her in the loft while we waited to start the podcast so that I could match your headpieces. Amazing. And for those that can see mine, I have some Christmas tree headband and a Santa Claus display in the background. So, let's dive into this. We're talking about festivities today and Christmas, gift giving. So I feel like it's only right to start off by asking you both, what are your general thoughts about Christmas? Are we Christmas spirited people? Cath, do you love this season? I like it if it's just done at Christmas. So, not from September. Yeah, I enjoy the time with family. I have to admit, probably an unpopular opinion, but I quite enjoyed the period when we were forced to isolate over the COVID period. I quite liked having a small family affair and not rushing around all over the place. I think we can be tempted to be running around, doing all sorts of things in the run up to Christmas, seeing lots of different people, going out partying with all different groups of friends. So I think that's quite nice. I do like just like Christmas really, with family. Just a chilled one! Yeah. And what about you, Luis? Are you a Grinch or are you an elf or? So I wouldn't say I'm a Grinch. I do enjoy Christmas. And I think even more so, since I've come to the UK, being able to experience a winter Christmas, because I'm used to a summer Christmas. I guess I just don't like starting it early, very much like Cath. I traditionally grew up with Christmas starting in the beginning of December up until Christmas day. And typically, it being extremely big family events, but since, moving to the UK, it's become a lot smaller, which helps. And I think it's a great time of the year to... force is too much of a strong word, but a great time of the year for everyone to get together and just spend some quality time, not really talking about work, but just being a family and being people. Yeah, I agree. I think I don't know what it is about Christmas, but I am just like the biggest... I love it. I'm the most excitable person when it comes to Christmas. I am one of these who wants to... You're all probably going to hate me... I'm the one who wants to be playing Christmas songs in November. I decorate my house from top to bottom. It's a full on grotto. I haven't started yet, but I think the 1st of December is my acceptable time. I feel like that's my... I probably would have it a little bit before, if my family didn't judge. But yeah, I just love it. There's something about the season that I feel like brings us all together and makes people a little bit happier. A lot of people are quite miserable these days and I feel like that spirit is there, which I think that's why I like it so much. But let's talk about gifts because that's why we're here today. We're talking about the process of buying gifts, planning gifts, and just being generally organised when it comes to gifting people at Christmas. So, Cath, can you sort of kick us off and tell us a little bit about your process of planning Christmas gifts? Would you say you're an organised type of person? I was gonna say, I am the organiser in our family. So I like to coordinate, making sure everybody's bought for, and although I said I don't like it starting early to Christmas, I do like to start the gift buying early, so that it's out of the way, so that you can enjoy the Christmas period. Although saying that, I never quite get it right and there's always a few last minute places around to try and get something. So yeah, I would say, I'm the organiser. That's a Christmas term. I feel like every family has to have one of those though. I feel like you're either one way or the other. Luis, what about you? Are you the organiser? I'm definitely not the organiser, but the organiser has kind of turned me into a very sensible gift giver. So for the rest of the family outside of the home, we typically would try and source things throughout the year so that we don't have to worry about it in December. It doesn't work for every person and it doesn't work all the time, but when we find opportunities to do that, we do. But I think where the challenge comes in for me is when I'm trying to buy gifts for my partner because when we go out, my partner is always with me, and when I want to try and do things without knowledge, it's kind of obvious because I'm saying things like, "Well, you go to that shop, I'll go to that shop and I'll meet up with you." That's a bit sus, right? So I think planning helps a lot, but then there is still that element of being able to do it independently. That's the thing, isn't it? A lot of people don't realise that side of... There's so much hype around Christmas and gift giving. Christmas is not all about the gifts, but that's a big part of people's process, isn't it? And when you have a disability, people don't often think about that side of things that it's actually quite hard, and you have to be extra organised and put things in place to be able to get things ready in time. I personally, I'm a list guy. I'm the kind of guy who wants to be very organised. I've got lists. I will start as early as I can. I think I'm probably, majorities of October time, I'm definitely knee deep into it by then. But yeah, let's talk about some more of those difficulties that we face when we're sort of trying to buy gifts or surprise our loved ones. Luis's already mentioned there, Cath, about the fact that whenever he goes out into town, his partner, nine times out of 10, is often with him. Is that something that you struggle with as well when it comes to trying to surprise your loved ones? Yeah, it is. To be honest, as I mentioned, I'm getting a bit old. And now when it gets to winter, even though I say I'm really adventurous, actually, I like staying in. So I just started doing a lot of my Christmas shopping online. So I don't often go out to buy them. I might have a look outside or see something when I'm out and about, but then I come back and source it on the internet. Not great for independent shops, I know, sorry. So, yeah, I do that. But also, I suppose I said I was organised earlier, but actually, each year I try something different because it doesn't... Nothing really does work about, apart from going out yourself, find what you want to get, coming home, wrapping it. So I try something different each time. So I've had, I've been organised enough to have it bought in advance or a PA would help me or I've got grown up kids, so they might come Christmas shopping with me, or I might say, "I have bought this, it's in such and such a room, could you please wrap it for me? It's for your mum, so can you just do that for me?" This has happened a few times where I actually... This is a good tip. I've bought something myself, it's arrived, I've managed to keep it from my partner, and then I've kept it in a bag, a carrier bag that you can't see. So I've said, "When you're wrapping that, would you just mind wrapping that for me, please, but leave it in the bag?" Works. Wow, stealth! I mean, it's a very risky move. I know I've got friends and family who would absolutely peek at that, but... It's great. She wouldn't dare, she wouldn't dare, she wouldn't dare. She knows what that is. I'll probably tell you about my little blooper I've made this year, you can be the first to know. So I tried being organised actually last night, trying to make sure that I've got the gifts ready for her, she's got a special birthday this year, just after Christmas as well. I'm not gonna give anything away, but... So I thought, oh, I'll get in early and I'll order it online. And then I said... Because she shares my posts as well, she helps me do that. So I said, "If anything arrives from this or from this company, please don't open it." She said, "Oh, you've got me a gift, a Christmas gift?" I said, "No, but you've got a big birthday as well, so just please don't open them. Just leave them and I'll go through them," and try and sort out what I need. Yeah. But I was so panicky about letting her know that, that I actually forgot to check the address and I've actually managed to send eight gifts to a friend I sent a gift to a few years ago, in the same website. No. We've had a panicked email exchange and a text exchange, I said, "If they arrive at yours, I've tried to change the address. If they arrive at yours, please don't open them. I'll have to arrange for them to pick them up, but also don't tell my partner because one of them is for her." Yeah, that's a huge blooper. Wow. And that's, that's kind of comes with the pros and cons of online shopping really, isn't it, Luis? Mm hmm. I personally do a lot of mine online, purely because... I mean I have the luxury of being able to drive. So if I wanted to take myself into town and go around, luckily I can. However I hate shopping with a passion in town. The whole process of going through town really stresses me out. So I love buying people presents. I am a gift giver. I feel like that's one of my love languages. And I like to give really personal presents and I feel like doing that online, I get real sort of pleasure from that. Online, in terms for you, Luis, is that something you are able to sort of use? Or the pros and cons, let's talk through them. Yeah, I so, I don't have the luxury of having a vehicle that could take me places. So if I do want to go out, it's either with family or at an expense of a cab, or if I'm lucky, community transport, when they're available. So by natural progression, I automatically gravitated towards online shopping. And it's really great and I find it extremely useful, but not when you're sharing an Amazon Prime account with your household because whatever you buy, they can see, whatever you purchase, you get a notification saying that it's gonna be delivered on that day at this time. So, that's proved to be really hard. So this year I've kind of been really sneaky and I've awesome colleagues and I've awesome PAs, and I've tried to be as stealth as possible. So a case in point is we were all at home and there was a very big gift arriving at the door, which is the one that you see closest to my wheelchair, in the background. And I said to my PA, "I don't care who's at the door, but if the door rings, please go to the door and make sure you're the first there. And once you get it through the door, please put it in the bedroom, wrap it, and then bring it out to the living room, because there's no other way that I'm gonna get this to work." And thankfully it arrived while my PA was here 'cause I don't have to And I managed to successfully achieve that. But those are kind of the risks that I have to take because everything that I do is very dependent on someone else. I don't have the ability to go out and about on my own, even to the High Street where I live. So if I do go, I have to take someone with me and it's great that I have PAs to help me enable that, but as Cath's mentioned earlier, it's cold outside. So if I can avoid going to the High Street, I will. So I've just tried to be as clever as possible and rely on other people's accounts and other people who are willing to go to the store for me. That's the thing, isn't it? The physical aspect of actually going out to get gifts is a real barrier for many disabled people because not only is it the driving aspect of needing support getting to town, but once you're in town as well, it's getting around the shops, navigating paying at the till even, can be something. So there's a lot to... That many people don't think about, isn't it? So I guess that's one of the pros of online is that it sort of takes away that physical aspect of going out, but then when the present still arrives at your house, you've got your next mission of trying to hide it and wrap it. But I think what I've learned from you guys already, is that I think we're all on the same page as the... A good tip that we can share today is to have a variety of people around you to help because it's no good just relying on one person. Is it? Because obviously, that one person will probably be included in the gifts as well. So we've all got sort of an array of different people around us. Is that fair to say, Cath? Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. But also I think you just mentioned something earlier about when you're outside shopping, the payment, that's become much easier over the years because Apple Pay, all I need is my phone. It's revolutionised going and paying for a gift because you can literally tell a shop assistant, "Can I pay for that please?" They'll pick something off the shelf for you and you can just flash your phone at the payment. So it makes... That aspect of shopping has become a lot easier. That's a very good point. And the shared accounts, you touched on it briefly there, Luis. That's a big issue for many people and that can be a barrier because we're in this cost of living crisis at the moment where many of us are sharing accounts because we can't afford to all have individual subscriptions. And with sharing accounts, we've all got access to seeing what everyone's bought. How are you dealing with that? Like I said earlier, I'm relying on colleagues and PAs to help me. But I think what Cath has mentioned there about payment, that does help because I'm a pretty forward person and I'm quite brave. I'll ask any random stranger to give me something off the shelf, put it on my feet, whizz to the counter and pay for it, put it in a bag, ask them to staple the bag close, and I can pull things off while we're out and about quite quickly. But that's not always possible. I've just had open conversations with people saying, "Look, you know me, I know you, this is the situation. I clearly need some help with this or else I'm not going to be able to get the gifts that I want to get because that person's going to be able to see it when I'm doing it." And I think my added bonus is... Our daughter is very much a Christmas person, which is why the Christmas tree and gifts are already behind me, even though it's not December yet. And I just have to buy the gifts and then she'll willingly wrap them for me, no problem. And I've just got PAs to wrap her gifts so that she's not wrapping her own gifts. I don't think I'm quite brave, as brave as you, Cath, because they will all be tempted to peek if I tell them just to leave it in the bag so it's just, yeah, I don't think I'm willing to risk giving away the surprise that way. I just have to be clever with who I ask, what, where and how. I was going to say, they're only cheating themselves then, if they look, aren't they? They're going to spoil the surprise for themselves. That's true. Yeah. That's true. But then when you've got someone like my mum, for example, she tells me a story of her when she was younger, she unwrapped every single present behind her family's back and snuck downstairs one night, late at night, unwrapped them all, saw what she got, re wrapped them, so nobody knew then the next day. And I just... I don't get it. I just... Where's the fun in that? But some people can't wait, can they? I've got a question for you, Luis. I was having a conversation with somebody else, somebody earlier today about wrapping gifts. Does your daughter wrap your gifts well? Yes. She does probably a too well of a job because sometimes people complain that they can't get the gift opened, and so they have to rip the paper. I think the older she's become, the technique has developed and she's really good at wrapping gifts. But I guess for me, I don't care really how well it's wrapped as long as you can't see in the packet. Some of the gifts on the floor behind me are just bags that have been stapled quite thoroughly across the opening, so that you can't pry it to open and peek in, but overall, she's really good at wrapping. So over the years, I've become... I like it to look nice. If I was doing it myself, I'd spend time wrapping it. So I want it to look nice. But the friend I was talking to earlier today was telling me that she is the same as me. She likes them to look really nice and she picks the people that help her really carefully. Actually, we were discussing how you can judge if somebody is a good wrapper or not before you've seen if they can wrap. But one of the things she mentioned was that her husband, he actually plays Guess Who Wrapped the Gift Game on Christmas Day. Wow!. Wow. That's actually something I should try this year. I think talking about wrapping, this is actually something really unique to me because I've yet to see it in the UK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the shopping centres don't have people that wrap gifts for you. Like in South Africa, when you buy gifts, and especially in Christmas time, there's little stalls all around the walkways on the malls, so that you can literally go, and, "Here's my box, please wrap it for me." You pay a couple of rands, so like a quid or two, they wrap the gift for you like professionally wrapped, put it back in your bag and off you go. So that when you get home, no one can actually see what that is. I think something like that would go down like wildfire in the UK because how many times do we have to leave things to the last minute because we're so busy or because we're just having that opportunity to do our shopping? And then we've got to sneak through the door to make sure that no one sees what's in the bags and then strategically hide in the house until we have alone time to wrap them. I think that's something that would make a major difference in the lives of people with disabilities. Yeah. That sounds fantastic. The only place that I'm aware that does that occasionally is there is an option if you're buying gifts online on companies such as Amazon, there is a gift wrapping option for certain gifts there, which can be very beneficial for people. But it would be great to see more of that in the High Street shops, wouldn't it? It would. It would. And I think that it generates a lot of money for the charities in South Africa. They have volunteers representing different charities in a certain centre and everything that you pay for your wrapping is donations. So if you want to do a small donation, they'll still wrap it. And whether you do a massive donation, you're still getting the same wrapping and the same technique. So it might be a great way for charities to approach raising funds for the future. That's a good idea for SMAUK there Luis. Maybe. Maybe. And I think we've learned a great tip that you mentioned there as well because we're all about giving out little tips and life hacks this Christmas, is just put it in a bag. You haven't got to wrap it. Just put it in a bag, a nice festive bag, and staple it up or tie it up or whatever. You haven't got to faff them with all the cutting the paper and the cello taping. That's the hassle, isn't it? Just put it in a bag, and done. So there's a little tip for everyone. On the lines of we touched on the fact that we're in this sort of cost of living crisis as well. We talked about the shared accounts. Many people this year, gift wise, are doing things such as Secret Santa. Is that something within your household, Cath, or friends or family? We do have. I don't like to think that my children spend a lot of money. I have what I need. I buy what I need, I'm earning. So we talk to them about only spending a small amount. So we've been known to say, "Oh, if you want to go on to the Pound Shop or minimum amount, sorry, maximum amount you're allowed to spend is £5." So we have had fun in getting gifts. And the rule is it can be anything, it can be from a charity shop, it can be brand new, it can be something that's handmade, homemade. So yes, we tend to do that within the family unit. Yeah, I think it sounds fantastic. Yeah, it means you still get to buy a gift, which I want to do, but you don't have to spend a lot of money. Yeah. No, I agree. We do Secret Santa with several of my friendship groups because otherwise you are just spending and buying for the sake of it. And when you've got a group of people as well, or if you're doing it at your job or your work, the list just grows then, doesn't it? Yeah, sort of along the lines of cost of living again, Luis, I don't know your thoughts on sort of, do you feel like a lot of people are cutting down this year on the amount of, that they're spending? So I think there will definitely be households that are trying to be as creative as possible and get as much for their pound as possible. I think some people are more fortunate and are in stable jobs and earning a good salary, so I think that there will be households that are trying to cut down on their spending. Some people are more fortunate than others and have stable jobs and are earning decent money. But I think that the Secret Santa is quite a clever way of keeping the cost low. So one of my PAs, she's been on a Facebook group for a numerous amount of years now, and they as a friendship circle, do Secret Santa every year. And it's a maximum amount and it works really well because everyone's invested in that. So if you can find people who are willing to invest into that properly and do it on a regular basis, I think it would help save a lot of money. I agree. And I think as well, and this might sound controversial, but there's no shame in re gifting as well. I feel like as grateful as we all are to receive gifts, I think we're all... Well, you can all admit, we've received a gift at some point in our life where we've opened it and we thought, "I'm never going to use that, let's be real." And that gift will sit in the cupboard or wherever. So there's no shame in re gifting. If I get a gift that I know I'm personally not going to use, I don't have any shame in next year, re gifting that to somebody who I think would benefit from it. And I think that's a great saving and way of recycling a gift. Yeah, I don't think there's any shame in that, as long as you don't give it back to the same person, remember who gave it to you. Cath, you were nodding your head. Are you along the same lines there? I was just thinking that in my free time, I'm involved in Powerchair Football... I'm heavily involved in the local Powerchair Football club. And a lot of our raffle prizes, we rely on people having gifts for birthdays and Christmases that they just aren't going to use or aren't really their thing. And so we rely on them gifting them to us to use for raffles and tombola. So yeah, I'm completely with you on re gifting. Yeah. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's going to get chucked away and end up in a landfill, so if we can find a proper home for it somewhere else, then I think that that's fine. I think sometimes we do get gifts that people think would be perfect for us, but they're actually not. And rather than go to that person and say, "Look, I can't use this gift, have it back," we can give that on to someone else who can get a lot of value from it. Yeah, why not? And so, on a final note as well, I think throughout this podcast today, we've shared little tips and tricks and hacks. What other hacks or tips and tricks have we got that we want to share for other disabled people out there who are maybe struggling to surprise their loved ones with gifts this year? I'll kick things off. I think posting for me, posting is a big issue because I order my gifts online usually. And it's then the faff and the hassle of getting to the post office. Even though I can drive, I struggle to lift and carry boxes, and things like that. So it's the physical of getting to the post office. So for me, a hack or a tip would be a lot of gifts online, you can send directly to the recipient now. And you can leave a note saying it's a gift note, so you don't want prices or anything included. And if there's an option for gift wrap on places such as Amazon, fantastic. And you're saving on postage costs. So I think that's a tip from me is if you're ordering online, send the gift directly to the recipient. Luis, what about you? Anything comes to mind? Well, I think Cath touched a little bit on this earlier, I'm talking about making gifts. I haven't really done that for Christmas, but I have done it for anniversaries and I've done it for Valentine's Day and I've done it for birthdays in the times that I was unemployed. So there was a time in my life when I was unemployed for four and a half years. How does someone like that afford to buy gifts for their family? So I just made really personal gifts and I used my creative flair and I made a scrapbook once and I made a collage for someone else of photos and presentations. And I think the whole point about Christmas, yes, it has become very commercialised and it's become somewhat about the gifts that you get. So if you have the opportunity to make something that's really personal and something that has your effort and your love put into it, then by all means do that. It doesn't diminish the power of that gift just because you didn't spend anything on it. And I think sometimes, people are guilted into spending money over this period because, well, they're going to spend £150 on me, so I've got to spend more. And we can't afford to do that anymore, let's be honest. I mean, times are tough. So if you have an idea in your head of something that you can make or build or create on your computer to send to someone as a gift that you know is going to make them smile and warm their hearts, then that's a great gift to give someone. Me, I look forward to getting my scrapbook off of you for Christmas. Sounds great. And Cath, same question to you. Any final tips or advice for people with disabilities who are maybe struggling to surprise their loved ones? I suppose it's probably a little bit late now, and I was going to suggest that throughout the year, our family, we often buy food related items. So we'll buy a hamper of things that we know they like, and that can be something just as small as a jar of chilli jam and some sweets we know they like, or a box of cheese sauce mix or a particular brand of barbecue sauce. And we put them in a... So we make our own hamper, basically. So you can buy those throughout the year when you go shopping in your weekly shop, you can add an item in and build them up. Love that, actually, because it involves food, but love it. Yeah. And just take advantage, isn't it, of the... We've talked, we've touched on the cost of living crisis, but take advantage of the Christmas sales. So in the new year, get ahead of the game, buy those gifts that are on sale now and put them away ready for next year. If you know that a specific friend will really like that, it's all about being organised, isn't it? And not leaving it to the last minute. And I suppose we, as people with disabilities, would you say we can be spontaneous when it comes to Christmas, Luis? Well, I think there's no... I think we would be wrong to say we can't be spontaneous. I think anyone can be spontaneous, whether we have a disability or not. Yes, does disability play a factor? Absolutely. I mean, it's hard for me to say, "Oh, well, there's a sale on now, so let me go," because I don't have a car to do that. Whereas you can probably do that for us. So, spontaneity is definitely achievable. And if you're creative and well planned, you can be spontaneous whenever you want to. Yeah, yeah Absolutely. And Cath, finally, to you, we're ending this on a high. Hopefully people have enjoyed listening to sort of us highlighting the reality and the barriers that many of us face. Most important question to end on, what's Santa bringing you for Christmas? Oh, nothing this year because we're going away. Oh! We're spending it in France with my partner's brother and our nephews. And it's gonna be really exciting and really fun because it's another country. So we're going on a plane so we haven't got any space in our luggage. A holiday sounds perfect to me. Well, guys, thank you so much for watching our festive episode today. We hope that you have enjoyed the conversations we've had sort of highlighting the barriers that many people with disabilities can face when trying to surprise their loved ones at Christmas. And we've shared some tips and little tricks and hacks along that way, which will hopefully help you in the final weeks in the rundown to Christmas now. So, yeah, thank you very much for joining us. Have an amazing Christmas and we will see you again very soon. Bye. Bye bye, everyone. Bye. You've been listening to the Living With SMA podcast. We hope you can join us again next time. But in the meantime, don't forget to like and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. You can find out more on our website at smauk.org.uk.